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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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16731.  Elküldve:
2012-01-07 11:39:56 |
[1.] |
Kösz!
This is one of the reasons why I researched and wrote these articles and will write several more.
So many people think that dog health problems are from inbreeding, but inbreeding has a smaller impact than personal selection choices do.
Epilepsy is just one of our health problems, many others are also evident in the Mudi and many more will be if we ALL do not change the way we breed and not just Mudis, but all breeds.
Thanks for reading the articles and thanks for your comments. Celeste
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[előzmény: (16730) sárkánykutya, 2012-01-06 21:53:16]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 16711. Elküldve:
2012-01-04 21:18:12 |
[2.] |
Szia Melinda,
The links were not working to the articles, but they are now.
Sorry, but I did not understand the first question you asked.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #16714]
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[előzmény: (16710) Caryota, 2012-01-04 17:48:28]
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| 16709. Elküldve:
2012-01-04 12:58:30 |
[3.] |
Dear All,
Two issues I want to inform Mudi people about, translation would be very much appreciated, I thank you in advance.
1) If you did not know, I am one of the MMK (Magyar Mudi Klub) webmasters. My website software program crashed permanently about a month back. I was having trouble with the program since they sent the last update months ago and I have tried over and over to repair it. I finally gave up and purchased a new program last week, it should arrive any day. However this means I will have to remake the entire MMK website (and all of my websites), which is no easy or fast task. I sincerely apologize for this major inconvenience.
We have heard complaints that Péter and I do the MMK website for our own benefit. Péter and I give freely of our time and money to do the MMK website. We receive NO payment of any kind and never have. We are both members of the MMK, we pay our membership fees every year. It actually costs us money to make the site for the MMK, every upload we pay for. We give time, we buy the software, computers, electricity, internet connection and everything else needed to do the website out of our own pockets. I have not updated my own personal websites since March or longer, because of this software issue becoming more and more difficult to deal with, but I have continued to struggle with the MMK website. Each failed attempt to upload costs me time and money which I have given to the MMK site over my own sites!
Anyone that would like to become the MMK webmaster, please do so by speaking to Ákos about it, it is a time and money consumer that I would gladly give away. The expense of time and money we give to do the MMK website should put any ideas of doing the MMK website for our personal benefit to rest permanently. And anyone that still thinks this, is welcome to do the MMK website themselves.
2) I have finally completed an important research study on epilepsy in the Mudi and on Pedigree Analysis. I have had this research report and article translated to Hungarian and German by native speakers. The articles are available on this blog in download form in English, German and Hungarian, they are posted in English directly on the blog as well:
http://mudidirections.blogspot.com/
I hope you will be as stunned as I was with the Mudi breed epilepsy statistics and finally realize the fate that lies before us all, owner and breeder alike. We still have the time to do something about epilepsy, but time is running out. You can continue to deny it exists in the breed, you can continue to deny there is anything we can do about it and just accept it is part of dog owning and breeding, or you can finally open your eyes and actively do something to prevent it from spreading out of control. The choice is each of ours to make. But ignoring it will not make it go away.
I am currently working on a similar statistical study about hip dysplasia in the Mudi, I will publish the results on the blog as soon as they are completed.
Best regards,
Celeste Pongrácz
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[válaszok erre: #16710 #16730 #16739]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 11397. Elküldve:
2010-11-29 11:12:10 |
[4.] |
Kedves Kati,
When I interviewed Csaba Örkény I asked him specifically about the IPO exam if he had taken it, he said he did not. He competed in IPO style events and said he could have passed the exam most likely, but he never took the test officially. If he had I would have certainly listed it among his achievements in my interview!
Therefore, if there are no other Mudis that have passed the official IPO exam in Hungary, Varázs would be the first.
I do not know if there were any others, that was why I said I think, not that he SURELY was the first. Saying I think, means possibly, in English, and my post was only sent to English speaking forums.
So if no one knows of any other Mudis, this may make him the first, but only the official records can verify that.
Celeste
http://www.mudikennel.com
http://www.mudicompass.org
http://www.americanmudiassociation.org
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[válaszok erre: #11433]
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[előzmény: (11294) Csenkeszke, 2010-11-24 22:50:05]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 73218. Elküldve:
2010-08-03 00:28:23 |
[5.] |
Tudom. És?
Angol nyelve nem jó itt?? Szép ember vagy.
Hogy hívják, igazi név? Kibic....
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[válaszok erre: #73235]
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[előzmény: (73215) ki?bic, 2010-08-02 22:56:20]
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| 73205. Elküldve:
2010-08-02 21:43:04 |
[6.] |
Kedves Sári,
This is what happened, then maybe you will understand why I am upset.
Judit called me Monday or Tuesday morning at 9 am. Péter was not home, he left here on Sunday and was not in Hungary, but I did my best to talk to her, I was polite and not rude with her. I understood that a puppy from our kennel was told to her to be needing a new home, but Judit did not know the name of the dog. I did not understand if there was an immediate emergency so I asked her to call Ákos and tell him what the situation was and he would call me if needed. I told Judit that Péter was away and would return Thursday and intended for her to call Péter on Thursday to talk to him as I could not help at all in this situation due to the language barrier. I WAS NOT indifferent about this at all as Judit is saying I was. If I could have helped I would have! We have never turned our backs on anyone in need, dog or human.
Ákos called me shortly after that call from Judit and said that Judit called him and said terrible things about us and that one of our pups was not wanted by the owner, Ákos was on vacation and did not know much more than I already did, which was just about nothing.
I did not tell Péter about this till Wednesday as there was nothing he could do anyway. He also expected that Judit would call him on Thursday. We do not have her phone number, email address or anything. We did not know which puppy this was, we did not know where the dog was or who to call. We expected Judit to call us as SHE was the one with all the information. She never called back on Thursday as I told her to.
We were not indifferent, we were not asked to be part of this after the initial call from Judit which was not very successful because of language and lack of information. It was Judit's responsibility to talk to Péter as she has all the control in this situation to email or phone Péter when he returned home. Judit did not do that.
If the owner could not wait for Péter to come home, what are we to do?? Is this our fault? Is it our fault we were not asked to help this dog by Judit?
We did not deserve to be trashed on this forum or to any person when we were not given the chance to do anything by Judit.
This is why I am so upset. She is calling us irresponsible and indifferent when we were not given the chance to know anything or do anything. This is not right.
The very next thing I know is what Judit wrote here over the weekend.
Maybe now you can see our side of it and why I am voicing it here where Judit chose to discuss this as well.
Celeste
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[előzmény: (73157) sárkánykutya, 2010-08-02 16:05:30]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 73144. Elküldve:
2010-08-02 14:19:36 |
[7.] |
Kedves Judit,
Typical response, take your toys and go home when the game is not played in your favor.
However I have not had enough and as long as things that are not true are written about me I will not have enough.
Right after you called me, and you could not even tell me which puppy of ours it was, you immediately called Ákos to say terrible things about us. We had not 5 minutes to do anything. So what you said was again not true.
I told you Péter was away and would not return till Thursday, nothing could be done on our part till then.
You should have called him on Thursday and told him which dog it was and what was the situation as you were the one that was called not us. We had no knowledge at all so what are we supposed to do, call every one of our puppy owners?
You mishandled this issue from the beginning and now you want to blame us and you get all your friends to join in with you as usual, typical netboard posse, this is why no one with any sense writes here anymore.
I was told what you wrote here, I never read this lame group anymore, but I will not be trashed unrightfully by you or anyone, here or anywhere.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #73157]
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[előzmény: (73137) Szilaj, 2010-08-02 13:20:10]
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| 73133. Elküldve:
2010-08-02 12:44:13 |
[8.] |
Kedves Kismakacska,
Where is the owners responsibility, it is their dog, not ours?? Why is it always the bitch owners problem? What about the stud owner?? They have an equal responsibility to all the pups their studs make too. Will you also "trash" them like you do us when they cannot help?
After Judit called me, she called Ákos and told him what terrible people we are, what terrible breeders we are, what terrible dogs we have, and what a crap puppy we bred (Fura). And she or anyone else expects Péter to run to the phone to call her back after this??? What kind of a rescue is this that acts this way??
Did Judit take one moment of her precious netboard time to even email Péter??? NO!
Why does rescue not also make the owners take some responsibility for this dog?? They give this dog up because they are bored with it, not because of some terrible urgent need. They made us a promise to take care of this dog in a proper manner for its life and they did not!! Why is it out fault they did not?? Why is it because we cannot take this dog at this moment we are terrible??
The proper owners should be contacted and told to pay for his neutering, feeding and any other costs till a good home can be found. THIS is the right thing to do, make them hold up their responsibility to this dog, this is what needs to be done. Letting owner after owner just dump their problem does not make the situation get better, it just encourages more owners to do this. Trashing me and Péter who did our very best by this dog till this very moment, is not the right thing to do.
You-Kismakacska should pray this does not happen to you. Everyone on this planet can need help from time to time and finally a real Mudi with a real pedigree and microchip that its breeders cared enough to give it needs help, this is what Mudi rescue is for, not trashing everyone involved but Mudi rescue, who is not telling the proper owners to do right by this dog now.
All the dogs that come through Mudimento had a breeder, I hope you have trashed them too for not even giving the dog a pedigree, microchip or any kind of help. I hope you take the time to trash the breeders that breed dogs like farm animals and sell on EuroPuppy too, don't just point your finger at us, we are not perfect, but there are far worse breeders out there that you and Mudimento should be complaining about. We have taken care of every one of our pups till this time and now we need help we are crap. I cannot wait to see what kind of a breeder you will be.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #73135]
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[előzmény: (73092) kismakacska, 2010-08-01 20:18:59]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 73032. Elküldve:
2010-07-31 21:25:04 |
[9.] |
Kedves Judit,
I am not the only person to write on this forum in English, but it has long been known you do not like it when people write here in English.
I could understand you, why you cannot understand me?
How long I have been here is not the issue or your concern.
Celeste
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[előzmény: (73007) Szilaj, 2010-07-31 20:17:32]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 73005. Elküldve:
2010-07-31 20:14:49 |
[10.] |
Kedves Judit,
Why you have not called Péter to this very moment to discuss this puppy, I do not know, but now you complain that we are doing nothing. Nobody has asked us to help, but we are doing what we can anyway because we do care. I am sorry I could not talk with you very much when you called as my Magyar is not good enough, but I told you Péter would be back from his conference on Thursday and you still have not called to speak with him about this. Ákos is not our or your messenger boy, if you want help you have to ask for it from Péter as I cannot speak with you myself.
We have helped to place every one of our puppies that needed a new home up until this time! We have gotten every one into another home or a foster home till they could be placed in a new home until this very moment. I have gone above and beyond the things breeders do with such dogs that need to go to another home. I have spayed, done hip and eye checks and paid for their food. What other breeder has done this? And I asked for no money for any of this from the new owner either! Now I cannot help with this one male the way you think we should and you call me a multiplicator, NOT. Why you hate us I do not know, we never did anything to you or Mudimento, that is a lie you tell still - but it stops now because I tell you it is not true what you say.
This puppy we cannot take because it is a male and I have a bitch in heat and two more will come in soon and they are his relatives. I do not want accidental litters other breeders seem to have no problems letting be born. BECAUSE I AM RESPONSIBLE.
We have a rescue dog (not a Mudi) with us right now and it attacks other dogs so we cannot have another rescue dog here. We have to keep this dog separated from the others and our house is not big enough, especially with bitches in heat, to bring a male here now.
I have asked several people if they want this puppy and will keep asking and looking for a good home for him.
The owners never once called us to tell us there was a problem with this dog. They came to visit us and this puppy 5-6 times before they brought the puppy home. They went to dog shows and we met them there. Péter spent hour after hour with this man and his daughter in email, on the phone at the events we were at, answering questions and talking about the dog and the Mudi breed. They never once said they had a problem with the dog. They took the dog to school, to the herding instinct test, shows, etc., he was not a problem dog, they are problem owners.
We are not a szaporító because we cannot help this one dog at this very minute. And who are you to judge anyone? Do you know us, our home, our current situation?
The owners are still the owners and it is also their responsibility to help see this dog to a new home. They do not have to give up this dog because of a home change or job loss, they give it up because they are bored with it!! Why does the breeder and rescue have to take the full responsibility for this dog because the owner is an irresponsible jerk that should not have had a plush stuffed dog. They need to keep the dog and care for it till a home can be found, and they can do this! These are not poor people in a bad situation. They did not call us and ask us to help or we would have! They signed a contract that requires them to call us in the event of any problems when they took this puppy and they did not follow what they agreed to do and now we are the faulty ones? We knew nothing until you called on Monday and I am sorry but Péter was away. I told you when he would be home, but you did not bother to call, so because you have not called Péter to talk to him about this, now we are the faulty ones? NOT! It is your fault for making a scandal of this instead of handling it properly.
Celeste Pongrácz
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[válaszok erre: #73007]
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[előzmény: (72954) Szilaj, 2010-07-31 16:02:42]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54247. Elküldve:
2010-02-27 09:25:53 |
[11.] |
At 9 affecteds in 1000, we are 1 epileptic short of 1% of the population being carriers.
Sorry it should be:
At 9 affecteds in 1000, we are 1 epileptic short of 18% of the population being carriers.
Celeste
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[előzmény: (54238) Gondűző, 2010-02-26 22:19:37]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54238. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 22:19:37 |
[12.] |
According to Dr. Padgett "if we use the Hardy Weinberg law, if 1% of the population is affected with a genetic disease, 18 % of the population consists of carriers, and we have a major problem on our hands".
At 9 affecteds in 1000, we are 1 epileptic short of 1% of the population being carriers.
This should bother each and every Mudi person.
Dr. Jerold Bell wrote about genetic disorder denial in 2003: "Unfortunately, many breeders can't get beyond the denial stage. Some will hold to increasingly improbable excuses, rather than accept that a condition is genetic. They will falsely blame relatively rare disorders on common viruses, bacteria, or medications. The fact that these organisms or drugs are common to millions of dogs annually that do not have these disorders is not considered. "
Dr. Bell is nem semmi in genetics either.
How many experts does it take to make a non-believer believe? I guess it depends on the non-believers ability to face reality.
Celeste
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[előzmény: (54229) Gondűző, 2010-02-26 21:57:06]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54229. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 21:57:06 |
[13.] |
Szia Sári,
If you do the Hardy Weinberg Equilibrium Calculation for population genetics:
Based on 1000 dogs (very rough estimate of worldwide Mudi population)
Based on 9 epileptic Mudis
Based on a 1 gene, 2 allele trait, with the trait being recessive that causes illness
82% will be non-carriers
17% will be carriers
This means that any dog without a known history is 5 times (approximately) more likely to be a non-carrier than a carrier.
Of course this is simplifying it, and it does not take into consideration that there are less then 1000 dogs in Hungary that can be bred with, probably more than 9 epileptics, etc., etc.
If you think these numbers are too high or too low I can recalculate it. It is just the rough estimate I have come up with for living Mudis in the world, with or without pedigree.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54238 #54240]
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[előzmény: (54196) sárkánykutya, 2010-02-26 21:33:56]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54188. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 21:12:20 |
[14.] |
Éva, The MEOE was kind enough to send me a letter of your complaint with your name on it.
Care to deny it further?
I am not the liar here.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54198]
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[előzmény: (54185) Híres, 2010-02-26 20:41:54]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54177. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 18:43:55 |
[15.] |
Éva, You know nothing about genetics, so I will not waste my time with you after this.
You don't know anything about COI's either or show any care about anything when it comes to breeding so don't act like you are so smart and good now. Do you even have a clue as to what your COI levels are for your litters?
You need to take a good look in the mirror before you say anything to me ever again.
At least I am trying to so something! All you do is complain to the MEOE about me and Péter. I never did one thing to you, why you keep trying to harm me I do not know. But it only wastes your time because no one cares what you complain about, including me.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54185]
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[előzmény: (54171) Híres, 2010-02-26 17:22:24]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54174. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 18:17:08 |
[16.] |
Gyuri,
Briefly, the bitch in question has 3 sure carrier grandparents, each one gives to the bitch a 25% chance to also carry the genes, this = 75. The 4th grandparent also has relatives that are carriers or suspect carriers and they give the other 6. 75 + 6 = 81
Numbers have to be given to the risk in order to breed away from it. We cannot do it any other way. This is how it is done for any number of traits the world over. If you were in the science fields you would know that.
IF you know that I am so inaccurate, then tell how to do it accurately, tell how you would get rid of epilepsy.
What is your plan other than to tell everyone their plan is wrong.
Not what I tell is harmful to the breed, the obvious lack of any plan and allowing high risk dogs to continue breeding and spreading the genes further and further is harmful.
I can see why so many people no longer write to this group, the intelligence level just gets lower and lower.
I give up on you all and will not waste anymore time here, you all are hopeless.
Celeste
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[előzmény: (54170) AduAsz, 2010-02-26 17:18:49]
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Gondűző
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| 54167. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 17:02:55 |
[17.] |
Marika,
Celeste, nem Celesz, stb,stb, ok/rendben? Köszi.
Since I know about epilepsy in the breed (after 2008), I plan to breed the risk in my litters smaller and smaller, that is the goal of disease removal for every breeder. I have not had any litters born since epilepsy was known to be active in the breed and since I learned how to analyze pedigrees to allow me to achieve this goal.
IF I could go back in time I would not have bred Angel to Cimbora or Lantos. Péter would not have bred his Fecske to Maci.
But we cannot go back, we can only change and fix what we do from here on out and if that means stopping to breed with high risk carriers that is what we ALL have to do. 81% is incredible high and should not be used for breeding the genes further into the pool.
If your dog had an 81% chance to die having puppies would you still breed her? Think about the percentage that way. If you say you would still breed her, then your heart is in the wrong place for your dog and the breed.
Mivel tudok epilepszia a fajta (2008 után), azt tervezem, hogy a fajta kockázatot én almok kisebb és kisebb, tehát a cél a betegség megszüntetése minden tenyésztő. Nekem nem volt olyan alom született epilepszia óta ismert volt, hogy aktív a fajta, és mivel megtanultam, hogyan kell elemezni családfa engedje meg, hogy e cél elérése érdekében.
HA mehetek vissza az időben én nem is tenyésztik Angel, vagy a Cimbora Lantos. Péter nem lenne a Fecske tenyésztették a Maci.
De nem mehetünk vissza, csak akkor tudjuk változtatni, és meghatározza, mit csinálunk innen már ki, és ha ez azt jelenti, megállás fajta fuvarozók a magas kockázatot, hogy az, amit mindannyiunknak meg kell tennie. 81%-a hihetetlen magas, és nem szabad tenyésztésbe a gének tovább a medencébe.
Ha a kutya volt egy 81%-os eséllyel halnak miután kölykök kíván fajta még vele? Gondolj a százalékos így. Ha azt mondod, hogy még mindig tenyészt neki, akkor a szíve nem a megfelelő helyen a kutya és a fajta.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54173]
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[előzmény: (54160) kormosvari, 2010-02-26 15:45:13]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54164. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 16:32:44 |
[18.] |
Hi Gyuri,
Google translator sucks and so does every other translator for Magyarul I know of. I try to correct what I can, but my main problem is the same as the translators and why I do not write myself, that the negative and positives get crossed, translation is not easy for me nor for computers.
Whoever can invent an accurate Magyar-English, English-Magyar translator should get the Nobel prize!
Thank you for the clarification very much.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54165 #54166]
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[előzmény: (54161) AduAsz, 2010-02-26 16:21:14]
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Gondűző
Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54159. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 15:23:04 |
[19.] |
Marika
Sorry you are wrong and just wanting to cause trouble as usual.
Guba is a B/R dog same as any other B/R Mudi with no parents on their pedigree. He looks like a Mudi and produced puppies that look like Mudis, end of story. Any other information is pointless in this Guba the mongrel story you and a few others drag on to eternity.
If YOU want to say that Guba carries a 50% risk (which is absolutely not correct) than ALL B/R dogs carry the same 50% risk. You have some of those in your pedigrees too. And in the stud's pedigree you just used for Szava as well! Forgot about that maybe?
This would be absolutely incorrect to calculate this way.
None of Guba's offspring have epilepsy, therefore he is not implicated. Only if a dog has a direct connection to epilepsy does it get a "mark" in my database to be used for calculation. I do not work with guesses or imagined theories.
Why do you continue to drag other dogs into this...simple, to take the mirror away from you and your responsibility in this issue.
Elnézést igazad, és csak akartam bajt, mint rendesen.
Guba egy B / R kutya ugyanaz, mint bármely más, B / R Mudi és nem a szülők a saját családfáját. Úgy néz ki, mint egy kiskutya Mudi termelt és úgy néz ki, mint Mudis, vége a történet. Bármely más információ értelmetlen ebben a Guba a korcs történetem és egy pár egyébre, hogy húzza az örökkévalóságig.
Ha meg akarja mondani, hogy Guba hordozza a 50%-os kockázati (ami egyáltalán nem helyes), mint az összes B / R kutyák ellátni ugyanazt a 50%-os kockázati. Van néhány ilyen az Ön származási lapok is. És a ménes családfáját az imént használt Szava is! Elfelejtettem, hogy talán?
Ez abszolút helytelen kiszámítása így.
Egyik Guba utódai epilepsziás, ezért ő nem érintettek. Csak akkor, ha egy kutya, közvetlen kapcsolatot tart az epilepszia jelenik meg a "jelet" az én adatbázist kell használni a számításhoz. Én nem működnek a találgatások vélt vagy elméletek.
Miért is húzza más kutyákkal ebbe ... egyszerű, hogy a tükör el az Ön és a felelőssége ebben a kérdésben.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54160 #54161]
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[előzmény: (54158) kormosvari, 2010-02-26 14:56:21]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 54157. Elküldve:
2010-02-26 14:50:54 |
[20.] |
Kedves Gyuri,
I can see you belong to the camp of denial. Many owners and breeders happily exist there, denying any solution or responsibility until something comes along to kick them into reality.
When the seizures have been ruled out to be caused by any other disease, toxins, etc., what you have left is genetic epilepsy. This is the widely accepted viewpoint of the veterinary field.
When the seizures do not go away, then it is genetically based because once the disease is cured, the fever reduced or the toxins removed, the seizures will abate.
When there is no trauma to the head as from an accident, the seizures are not injury related and the seizures are not from any other cause, they are told to be genetic by the veterinary profession.
When you have a very long history of carriers to support inheritance in a pedigree, it is genetic.
According to Dr. Padgett and yes he wrote THE BOOK on canine genetic diseases, "If the defect is inherited in dogs or in other species, then the chances that it is inherited in the affected dog(s) in your kennel are good." He goes on to say " My view is that a trait that is known to be inherited in your breed, or in other breeds, or in other species should be considered to be inherited in your dog unless proven otherwise."
His research indicates that epilepsy in the Keeshond is recessive. He lists another 81 breeds that have epilepsy of undetermined inheritance, and this was 12 years ago, so I am sure the list would be much longer today.
He continues to say "For situations in which you do not know the cause of a trait, and that trait has a severe detrimental effect on an animal, such as pain or permanent disability, you should determine that the trait is NOT genetic before you continue to mate dogs that produce it."
I think we can both agree that epilepsy would be considered to be severe, detrimental and permanent.
He continues "You should determine whether or not a severe trait is genetic BEFORE you proceed to spread it throughout a breed."
This means that in your way of thinking or mine about the genetic inheritance possibilities, these dogs and their related kin should not be bred as this is the moral, ethical and responsible thing to do, no matter what the cause of these seizures is.
I could go on with other experts to back up what I say and how I get the %, shall I?
Celeste
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[előzmény: (54143) AduAsz, 2010-02-26 12:04:42]
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| 54038. Elküldve:
2010-02-25 21:12:01 |
[21.] |
Kedves Gyuri,
"Lásd Celeszte hordozósági valószínüségszámítása, amely teljesen hülye, elvböl nehezen elképzelhetö számokat dob ki... Vagy jó számokat, csak valaki keveri a fogalmakat."
I do not know why you did not ask me directly about this, especially as you speak English, perhaps you also want to bury your head in the sand about epilepsy and the responsibility WE ALL have to do what we can to avoid reproducing it and spreading it further and further into the gene pool.
The mathematical equation I use is not of my making, it was created by a mathematician and geneticists and is widely used in the Australian Shepherd breed, and other breeds, to determine genetic carrier load for epilepsy and other diseases. Dr. Padgett also used equations very similar to this for his genetic disease research in dogs.
I have been friends with the developer of this formula for years. I went to her seminar and learned how to use it for the Mudi. I have the database to support it. I have the history of having a seriously epileptic Aussie myself and I watched in frustration and horror as that breed spiraled into hopelessness with it. Why? Because the breeders refused to do anything about it before it was too late. I want this scenario to not be repeated in the Mudi! But I can see it is hopeless and we face the same fate as the Aussie. I cannot begin to tell you how angry, frustrated and deeply saddened I am about this.
The equation is not perfect, I never said it was, the main problem is lack of information of affecteds, meaning the risks are lower than they probably are, but it is far better than nothing and we can do nothing and breed whatever risky dogs we want and wait until there is a DNA test which may never happen, to clean up the mess the careless breeders have made. OR we can try to breed it out like other breeds have done with diseases they have encountered, although epilepsy is a much harder disease to eradicate.
So Gyuri, which do you choose to do - nothing (just wait for DNA that may never come or come too late), or the best we can do with what we have available to use today?
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #54143]
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[előzmény: (53882) AduAsz, 2010-02-25 15:59:30]
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| 53822. Elküldve:
2010-02-24 22:57:52 |
[22.] |
Kedves Marika,
You hope to continue to be lucky? There is epilepsy oozing out of your lines from every orifice! Where is your luck?
I did not know until 2008 October that there was surely epilepsy in the Mudi until Babó became sick. YOU however knew it long before that time and continued to breed all of your dogs many, many times! YOU did not tell anyone about the diagnosis of your Fecske until YOU had to tell it when Babó became sick.
IF YOU had told about YOUR Fecske at least in 2005, then maybe I and alot of other people could have made better breeding decisions BEFORE 2008 October!
I DID NOT BREED ANGEL AFTER I FOUND OUT ABOUT EPILEPSY IN YOUR KENNEL! Because her father is K-H Bojtár! So you can say nothing about my breeding!
Angel has a 66% chance to carry epilepsy genes because of K-H Bojtár. Our P-V Fecske has only a 25% chance. Your Fecske has 100% CHANCE to pass the genes to every one of her offspring! Szava has an 81% chance. I took my 66% dog OUT of breeding while you keep your 81% dog IN breeding - how do you have the nerve to talk to me or anyone about anything???
NOW you know about the epilepsy without ANY doubt in your dogs since 2008, yet you still breed them and bred within the last weeks with one. You cannot accuse anyone of anything and have no rights to ask anyone any questions about how they breed when you are more at fault than almost anyone in this issue.
YOU STILL REFUSE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION and I will not write you again until you do!
Azt reméli, hogy továbbra is a szerencsés? Van epilepszia szivárgott ki a sorok minden nyílás! Hol van a szerencse?
Nem tudtam, hogy 2008-ig, október, hogy nem volt minden bizonnyal az epilepszia Mudi ig Babó volt beteg. YOU azonban tudta, hogy jóval azelőtt, hogy az idő, és továbbra is az összes fajta kutyák sok-sok idő! Nem mondta el senkinek a diagnózis felállítását a Fecske amíg el kellett mondanom, amikor Babó volt beteg.
HA azt mondta az Ön Fecske legalább 2005-ben, akkor lehet, hogy én és sok más ember lehetett volna, ha jobb tenyésztési döntések előtt 2008 október!
ÉN NEM TENYÉSZT ANGE miután megtudtam epilepszia ÖN KENNEL! , Mert az apja K-H Bojtár! Szóval lehet mondani semmit sem tud az én tenyész!
Angyal 66%-os esélyt, hogy készítsen epilepszia gének miatt KH Bojtár. A mi P-V Fecske-nak csak 25% az esélye. Ön Fecske már 100%-os eséllyel át a gének, hogy mindenki rá utódok! Szava van egy 81% az esélye. Fogtam a 66%-a kutyát tenyésztési közben megtarthatja a 81%-kutya tenyésztés - hogyan van bátorságuk, hogy beszéljen velem, vagy valaki erről valamit??
Most már tudni az epilepszia minden bizonnyal a kutyája 2008 óta, de még mindig fajtát tenyésztik őket, és az elmúlt egy héten. Nem tudsz vádolni bárki bármit, és nincs joguk feltenni bárkinek bármilyen kérdése van, hogy úgy szaporodnak, ha nagyobb hibát, mint szinte bárki más ebben a kérdésben.
Még mindig nem tagadhatják meg a választ a kérdésemre, és én nem írok neked, amíg te!
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #53859]
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[előzmény: (53741) kormosvari, 2010-02-24 22:14:44]
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| 53721. Elküldve:
2010-02-24 21:55:48 |
[23.] |
Kedves Marika,
What does what you wrote have to do with this?
You did not answer my question. Was it wise to breed a dog that has an 81% (minimal) chance of carrying epilepsy genes? Is this caring about the breed? Is this caring about your puppies and owners?
I instantly stopped breeding a dog that has a 66% chance to carry the genes. Why can you and no one else do the same?
The dogs carrying the bulk of the epilepsy genes need to be stopped from further breeding if we are to have any chance of keeping these genes from being in every litter born. Why does no one care to do this but me and a few others? Dogs do not beg to have puppies! STOP breeding high risk carriers!! NOW! Before it is too late.
Mit jelent az, hogy mit írt volna csinálni ezzel?
Ön nem válaszolt a kérdésemre. Vajon bölcs dolog fajta kutya, hogy van egy 81% (minimális) esélye van a hordozó gének epilepszia? Ez törődve a fajta? Ez törődve a kölykök és a tulajdonosok?
Én azonnal megállt egy kutya tenyésztés, amely a 66%-os eséllyel hordozzák a gént. Miért lehet, és senki más nem ugyanaz?
A kutyák könyv nagy részét az epilepszia gének kell állítani a további tenyésztésre, ha azt akarjuk, hogy bármi esélye, hogy ezeket a génjeit, hogy minden alom született. Miért senki sem fordít erre, de nekem és még néhány más? Kutyák nem könyörgök, hogy a kölykök! STOP tenyésztés magas kockázatú fuvarozók! MOST! Mielőtt még túl késő lenne.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #53729 #53741]
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[előzmény: (53677) kormosvari, 2010-02-24 21:26:21]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 53683. Elküldve:
2010-02-24 21:30:29 |
[24.] |
Kedves Zsuzsanna,
Normally I would not converse with you, but this topic is too important to let personal issues impede the dispersement of valuable information.
You have never shown you understand genetics, and I do not have the time to teach you.
But basically, the parents of an epileptic are immediately carriers. The grandparents are immediately suspect carriers.
I know of 9 epileptics, properly diagnosed by veterinarians. I know of 4 almost sure epileptics needing proper diagnosis and I have heard of 1 more that was properly diagnosed but I do not the name of the dog.
With just 8 of those being not littermates, that is 16 parents and 32 grandparents as carriers or probable carriers. This is all you need to do a genetic study.
Then I have a mathematical formula created for calculating risk factors. I add in the risks behind any dog and get the %.
This is how it is done in other breeds, not just the Mudi. This is how noted professionals research disease patterns.
I can show you (or anyone) the pedigree of most any Mudi and the epilepsy related carriers/suspect carriers behind them and then do the math to figure out their risk.
What can you do but give vague names and information? A big old breeder like yourself that cares so much should know more than I do....but you don't.
Normális esetben én nem beszélgetni veled, de ez a téma túl fontos ahhoz, hadd személyi kérdések akadályozza dispersement értékes információkat.
Soha nem jelenik meg érti a genetika, és nem volt ideje tanítani.
De alapvetően a szülők, az epilepsziás azonnal fuvarozók. A nagyszülők azonnal gyanús fuvarozók.
Tudom, hogy a 9 epilepszia, megfelelő által diagnosztizált állatorvosok. Tudom, hogy a 4 szinte biztosan epilepszia szoruló helyes diagnózis és hallottam 1 több mint helyesen diagnosztizálták, de én nem a neve a kutya.
Mindössze 8 e, hogy nem littermates, azaz 16 szülőknek és 32 nagyszülei fuvarozók vagy valószínű fuvarozók. Ez minden amire szükséged van-hoz csinál egy genetikai tanulmány.
Aztán van egy matematikai képlet kiszámításához létrehozott kockázati tényezők. Vehetek a kockázatok mögött minden kutya és kap a%.
Ez hogyan csinálja más fajtájú, nem csak a Mudi. Így jegyezni szakemberek kutatási okoznak.
Meg tudom mutatni neked (vagy bárki) a származási legtöbb olyan Mudi és az epilepszia kapcsolódó légi fuvarozók / gyanús fuvarozók maguk mögött, majd tegye a matek, hogy kitaláljuk, hogy kockázat.
Mit tehet, de adjon homályos nevét és adatait? A nagy öreg, mint te, hogy a tenyésztő érdekel annyira tisztában kell lennie, mint én .... de te nem.
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #53696]
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[előzmény: (53648) Mudibarát, 2010-02-24 21:13:08]
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Tagság: 2004-11-08 09:46:10
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| 53642. Elküldve:
2010-02-24 21:01:01 |
[25.] |
Kedves Marika,
How many sick dogs does it take for you to believe that epilepsy in the Mudi is genetic?
I can show you epilepsy in the pedigree of your dogs for more than 6 generations. This is proof that it is genetic. Also behind every other epileptic the pedigree proves it.
Not once has any epileptic NOT been related closely to others.
Based on the conservative information I have, Szava has an 81% chance of being a carrier of epilepsy genes, was it a wise thing to breed her?
Hány beteg kutyákat tart, hogy Ön azt hinni, hogy az epilepszia genetikai Mudi van?
Meg tudom mutatni epilepszia származásának a kutyák több, mint 6 generációk számára. Ez is azt bizonyítja, hogy ez genetikus. Mögött is minden más epilepszia a származási bizonyíték.
Egyszer már olyan epilepsziás nem szorosan összefüggött a többieknek.
Alapuló információk konzervatív vagyok, Szava van egy 81% esély van a fuvarozó az epilepszia gének, volt bölcs dolog tenyészteni vele?
Celeste
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[válaszok erre: #53645 #53651 #53677]
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[előzmény: (53600) kormosvari, 2010-02-24 19:57:22]
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